Pine Lake Country Club. Traverse City (Acme), MI If none is this is your cup of tea or you don't want to spend this kind of money, fortunately, Chicago is a great public golf town, especially if you drive out 30-45 minutes from the city. Social events and Holidays are celebrated at Orchard Lake - with emphasis on fun for the entire family. Saint Charles, MI [/quote] Such are the benefits of a private club. Epic Max LS - HZRDUS SMOKE iM10 KVS and SoftRight customers now have the ability to upgrade to Springbrooks new Cirrus cloud platform: There's Conway Farms in Lake Forest. I had a similar thread in the places to play thread, except I was looking NW Suburbs. They just finished redoing the course last year after being closed for a year and it's gorgeous. The sprawling 100-hectare plays host to three clubhouses, a top rate golf course, as well as a wonderland of social, recreational and entertainment facilities to cater to all your business and leisure needs. One other option is the Glen Club in Glenview. a private company, so members must be on board by member recommendation to become members. Total memberships to 1,360 as of March 30, 2019. An Intermediate member is not entitled to vote or hold elective offices. 7. Social Intermediate MemberThe Social Intermediate membership entitles you to the use of all clubhouse, pool, tennis and fitness facilities at reduced fees. 734-429-7679, 8810 W 6 Mile Rd The Orchard Golf & Country Club Aguinaldo Highway, Dasmarias City, Cavite, Philippines 4114 Manila Tel: +632 8982-2000 Cavite Tel:+6346 416-5931 to 35 . The average price, however, will normally be in the $500 to $20,000 range to just join. Charlevoix, MI Over the last four months, Ive had a surprising number of people ask me questions about joining country clubs. might be an option- great conditioned golf course but a bit short and no driving range to speak of. Butterfield and Chicago Highlands charge 6 figures to join. Typically, a family consists of one male and one female in the $7,800 range. Bellaire, MI Sean Ogle. We are pro-rating our membership fees for the remainder of this season. WebOffering one of the most challenging yet playable designs in Michigan, the Orchard Lake Country Clubs 18-hole championship golf course is a Colt & Alison original. Is Country Club Worth Joining? Please visit www.waaboozrun.com for more information. how much does it cost to join oakland hills country club? WebAtlas Valley Country Club - Private 8313 Perry Rd Grand Blanc, MI 810-636-2273 Inquire About Membership View Membership Information Belvedere Golf Club - Semi-Private 5731 Marion Center Rd Charlevoix, MI 231-547-2611 Inquire About Membership View Membership Information Berrien Hills Golf Club - Public 690 W Napier Benton Harbor, MI 269-925-9002 WebFriendly Hills Country Club Membership Cost Glendora Country and Golf Club Granite Bay Golf Club Membership Cost Hacienda Golf Club Cost La Canada Flintridge Country Club Cost Lake Merced Golf Club Membership Cost La Rinconada Country Club Cost Los Coyotes Country Club Cost Marbella Country Club Membership Cost Marin Country The cost of monthly membership varies from a few hundred dollars all the way up to $2,000 a month, depending on the club. Great course, pro staff, member base and history. Ridge C.C. WebMembers have complete access to all social and dining functions. [/quote] As of a few years ago, Beverly had a pretty decent waiting list. 616-683-7073, 1714 N River Rd WebMEMBERSHIP At Orchid Country Club, membership has its privileges. The file can be completed easily, then saved and emailed to our Assistant Clubhouse Manager Zachary Kowalczyk at zkowalczyk@lochmoorclub.com. Orchard Lake Country Club is about a lifestyle. WebORCHARD LAKE COUNTRY CLUB. 22353 Old McHenry Road, Long Grove, Illinois 60047-9401 Phone: 847-634-3800 Golf Shop Ext 290 Please contact our Membership Director Kelly Detrick at 747-3117 Pine Lake Country Club. $5,701,679 in annual subscriptions nt volume $2 About 125 workers (FTE) are recruited on a full year basis for the membership. 231-947-9140. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. For your next special event, the Oakland Hills Country Club should be at the top of your list of more. You can post now and register later. Is Country Club Worth Joining? Just show up and play. East Lansing, MI We check equity costs, mandatory or non mandatory requirements, annual dues, initiation fees, trail fees, and refunds on equity every six months. Sean Ogle. Whether it's playing platform tennis at 10 below or playing golf from the tips, you will find plenty of ways to challenge yourself at Orchard Lake. Easy to get to. Bloomingdale, MI (313) 886-1010. WebSocial Membership Orchard Lake Country Club is unmatched in the quality and services offered by a Social Membership. [quote name='Bay1524' timestamp='1313008243' post='3470916'] [/quote] As you begin looking for your new safe haven to stay active and connected, I encourage and welcome you to consider PLCC. There are numerous benefits you can receive from becoming a Seasonal Golf Club Member at Bucks Run. PO Box 74. 5-PW Ping i210 DG 120 The annual dues are 500 dollars plus 100 dollars. Orchard Lake Country Club is about a lifestyle. During the summer of 1926, Colt and Captain Hugh Alison were in action. Whether playing a leisurely round with family or competing against the best, the course welcomes all. Members are responsible for knowing the dress code and ensuring Buttterfield is just down the road from Butler but there aren't many similarities if I'm not mistaken. Prestwick Country Club 5197 Fairway Drive, Avon, IN46123 317-745-6448[emailprotected]. Saline, MI I was in the same boat a few months ago so interested to hear what you decided. Country clubs have a wide range of costs. [/quote] $40 Monday Thursday. WebFrom a day on the water in our custom one-design sailboats to a day enjoying a barbeque in our picnic grove, the Orchard Lake waterfront offers a unique and distinctive mix of activities. away. The Social member may golf once a month, with a golf member, within available time slots paying cart fees and guest fees. After December 1, 2019 Full Memberships will be priced at $4000. Social Members are entitled to the use of all clubhouse, pool, tennis and fitness facilities. how much is a lake nona country club membership? NOW AVAILABLE: GolfWRX G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos! WebFor additional information or to schedule a tour, please contact us at info@orchardgolfclub.com or (706) 754-4277. WebMembers of other area Country Clubs are invited to join Lochmoor as a 2nd Club member. Lochmoor Club 1018 Sunningdale Drive | Grosse Pointe Woods | MI 48236 Our 150 Social Members can take pleasure in Dining, Swim and Tennis activities. We provide unlimited golf all year round but you get to enjoy every facility as well as meet new people. 4Ui - Srixon ZX, 1 deg weak - UST Recoil Grandville, MI Orchard Lake Country Club is a Please contact the clubhouse For membership rates & information Course Info Location and Contact 5000 West Shore Drive, West Bloomfield Township, MI, 2375 orchardlakecountryclub.com update website (248) 682-0100 update Note: In order to know the exact price of a membership it is The sprawling 100-hectare plays host to three clubhouses, a top rate golf course, as well as a wonderland of social, recreational and entertainment facilities to cater to all your business and leisure needs. I live pretty close to the Loop and am willing to drive 20-25 minutes to get somewhere. Lucia Affiliate Member (Proprietary Member of the Affiliate Club) Weekend Green Fee: 18-holes: Pine Lake was founded in 1902 and is proud to be the premier family club in Southeast Michigan that has it all. WebMembers have complete access to all social and dining functions. Flint & Genesee Please contact our Membership Director Kelly Detrick at 747-3117 a private company, so members must be on board by member recommendation to become members. Memberships are available and Include golf cart and Range. Social MemberA Social member is a member who is 35 years of age or older. It is also a great family club if that is a consideration. Eau Claire, MI Rockford, MI Started 45 minutes ago, Please put and questions or comments here, Please put any questions or comments here, Please put any questions of comments here. The organizer/host of the gathering is a member of the country club and arranged to have our meeting in a private room overlooking the lake. 231-533-3000, 16339 Park Lake Rd Butterfield Country Club in Oak Brook is a great option. Family Golf Memberships - $3500.00 Annually. 43 talking about this. VISION STATEMENT: To be the Midwest's Premier Family-Focused Private Club About 310 Full Members; 200+ in all other categories It costs approximately $7 per person. Milford, MI Paste as plain text instead, WebMEMBERSHIP At Orchid Country Club, membership has its privileges. 844.602.4841, 5780 Shanty Creek Rd Featuring a Willie Park Jr Design, 18-Hole Championship Golf Course, newly updated Indoor and Outdoor Tennis Courts, Olympic Size Swimming Pool, state of the art Fitness Center. Located in the hills of Hancock Park, The Wilshire Country Club plays 18-hole rounds of golf. Orchard Lake Michigan. Upon becoming a full member, you will be required to pay a deposit fee of Sh20,000 ($200), an entrance fee of Sh350,000 ($3500) as well as an additional fee of Sh110,000 ($1100) as membership fees. Webpurchase a membership subtracting the cost of the punch card. $40 Monday Thursday. WebMembers of other area Country Clubs are invited to join Lochmoor as a 2nd Club member. WebOrchard Lake Country Club is dedicated to being the Midwest's premier family focused club through the consistent delivery of the highest quality personal service, amenities and excellent value, in a warm atmosphere of camaraderie, for the enjoyment of its Members and Guests. Over the last four months, Ive had a surprising number of people ask me questions about joining country clubs. In general, monthly expenses will range between $300 and $700. I know a few people who are "corporate" members there and quite happy. Harbor Springs, MI Beverly Country Club is [i]IN[/i] Chicago and is 30 mins from the Loop. From the date you submit your application, the month following will be charged a monthly fee as well. These members are limited to making tee times 24 hours in advance and eligible for tournament/league play only as space allows. Members must pay $343 per month in dues and are allowed to play both the main and minor courses. Your previous content has been restored. 3300 Pine Lake Rd Orchard Lake, MI 48324 Eastern Michigan Map This Course: Phone: (248)682-2121 the first seven holes of golf were in usage and two more were added in 1919. This wont include the monthly fees, which, again, depending on the club, can range anywhere from $50 to more than $1,000 per month. Spruce, MI (Accompanied by an Orchard Member) Php 900 Sta. Orchard Lake Country Club 5000 West Shore Dr. Orchard Lake Village 248-682-0100 WebOrchard Lake Country Club - Michigan - Best In State Golf Course | Top 100 Golf Courses Courses North America USA Michigan Orchard Lake Architect s C. H. Alison West Bloomfield Township, Michigan Rankings 14 Played Want to Play Address 5000 W Shore Dr, West Bloomfield Township, MI 48324, USA There is an initial deposit of $2,500 and a monthly membership fee of $149 for golfers. Note: Accompanied Family Guest Rates are available to siblings and family members within one generation either direction of the member. Fantastic short game area with 3 or 4 greens and several bunkers. How Much Does It Cost To Join Gull Lake Country Club? Would love to hear more suggestions as well. The starting cost for Saturday nights at Isla Del Sol Yacht & Country Club is $4,000 for 50 guests at Isla Del Sol Yacht & Country Club. 1 talking about this. Yes it is far out there, however on a Saturday/Sunday morning it takes me 36 minutes door to door. Generally speaking, their junior programs are not as expensive and, some say, easier to get in. Orchard Lake Country Club is about a lifestyle. Oakland Hills Country Club 3951 West Maple Rd. Country Clubs. WebMembership. Freeland, MI No matter what your decision, these clubs are all like adult camps. [/quote] Niles, MI The time-saving tools you use online are now even more convenient; connect with other members, register for events, make a tee time, reserve a court and get up-to-the-minute updates directly from the club all in real-time. Grand Rapids, MI Members are responsible for knowing the dress code and ensuring Home; Golf. Our state-of-the-art fitness center and athletic facilities guarantee that every workout is a great workout. For more information, contact Zachary Kowalczyk at zkowalczyk@lochmoorclub.com or 313.886.7992. [quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1379366630' post='7861699'] 4. Orchard Lake Michigan. If you look north at all, I visited and got pricing on most courses. [/quote] The lake is located in Orlando, Florida. I hear they are having some great deals on Jr. Memberships and from the loop it is usually against traffic both ways so it only takes about 25 minutes to get there. 231-547-4653, 724 Ames St Members are responsible for knowing the dress code and ensuring It is a very good course but not sure about the games. Royal Melbourne is 20k initiation, payable interest free over 10 years. WebWe invite you to request a tour of our facility and welcome any questions that you may have. These members are limited to making tee times 24 hours in advance and eligible for tournament/league play only as space allows. 231-861-6616, 1579 Floyd Ave Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Grand Rapids, MI Charlevoix, MI Featuring a Willie Park Jr Design, 18-Hole Championship Golf Course, newly updated Indoor and Outdoor Tennis Courts, Olympic Size Swimming Pool, state of the art Fitness Center. Mt. How Much Does It Cost To Join Gull Lake Country Club? Can be applied towards membership dues. GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, Tuesday at 04:47 PM, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 20, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 13, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 6, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, January 31, By Orchard Lake Country Club is about a lifestyle. 231-547-9796, 13561 Dunham Rd $5,701,679 in annual subscriptions nt volume $2 About 125 workers (FTE) are recruited on a full year basis for the membership. Caledonia, MI Annual Passes & Range Passes may be purchased online or at the clubhouse for unlimited golf. Plus discounts in Golf Shop, complimentary charge privileges, reciprocal agreements with area courses, special member guest rates. Orchard Lake Michigan. [/quote] club has about 550 members, at least a couple who pay as much as $8,000 a year in initiation fees, and some who charge up to $1,000 a year for food and beverage service, according to the clubs membership document. $89 Friday Sunday & Holidays. Good times [quote name='Tom S.' timestamp='1312996525' post='3470236'] Looking for a place to call my golfing home in Chicago. I was in your shoes up until March. There is no need to pay high fees in order to join a golf course, just because it is willing to do so. 43 talking about this. Canton, MI Crystal Mountain is pleased to offer our 2022 Midweek Players Pass for only $399. WebWe invite you to request a tour of our facility and welcome any questions that you may have. Note: Accompanied Family Guest Rates are available to siblings and family members within one generation either direction of the member. Is anyone aware of any public courses that have special season passes or practice & play memberships? 5/15/2017. The time-saving tools you use online are now even more convenient; connect with other members, register for events, make a tee time, reserve a court and get up-to-the-minute updates directly from the club all in real-time. For additional information regarding pricing and our application process, please fill out this form or give us a call at (585) 663-9100. WebPine Lake Country Club is The Premier Family Club in the area, and we'd like to welcome you and your family to make this an extension of your home! Hartland, MI 989-786-2211, 6514 Days River 24 1/2 Rd Membership dues are due on the members club with your individual contribution of $35. Orchard Lake Country Club. 616-245-2021, 6902 Highland Rd Glen Oak, Oak Park, Riverside- all fantastic layouts and all west of the city. Northern Michigan Bloomfield Hills 248-644-2500 oaklandhillscc.com Members: NA Initiation fee: NA Monthly fee: NA Offerings: South and North 18-hole golf courses, tennis, swimming, Albert Kahn-designed clubhouse. If you are new to this group, make sure you know the amount of the dues and their process for adjusting Generally, however, this is the type of investment you should take into account in the golf industry. Rates are tiered by age from youth to retiree. $89 Friday Sunday & Holidays. 231-755-1841, One Champions Circle I was in your shoes up until March. A sponsor would be required for anyone who wishes to join this elite group. Unlimited golf Cart is an additional fee: $10 for 9, $20 for 18 (per person), Trial Memberships Available at $250 per month. WebCountry Clubs. I will definitely look into all of these. In 1921, we had officially Kewadin, MI WebOrchard Lake Country Club is a private course available only to its members and their guests. Display as a link instead, Clear editor. WebSocial Membership Orchard Lake Country Club is unmatched in the quality and services offered by a Social Membership. Typically, a family consists of one male and one female in the $7,800 range. Boyne Falls, MI They also have a really attractive junior membership option. 248-887-9170, 9031 Boyne City Rd Def. Pine Lake was founded in 1902 and is proud to be the premier family club in Southeast Michigan that has it all. Butterfield is one of the highest-priced memberships in Chicago, even with discounted rates. $7,000 is the sum of money an individual can spend. Williamsburg, MI For more information, contact Zachary Kowalczyk at zkowalczyk@lochmoorclub.com or 313.886.7992. WebAtlas Valley Country Club - Private 8313 Perry Rd Grand Blanc, MI 810-636-2273 Inquire About Membership View Membership Information Belvedere Golf Club - Semi-Private 5731 Marion Center Rd Charlevoix, MI 231-547-2611 Inquire About Membership View Membership Information Berrien Hills Golf Club - Public 690 W Napier Benton Harbor, MI 269-925-9002 There's working out, and working out like this We know how to have a good time at Orchard Lake Country Club, but we also know how to stay in shape. Dollars plus 100 dollars and website in this browser for the next time comment... A great workout an option- great conditioned golf course but a bit short no! May be purchased online or at the top of your list of more post='3470236. You can receive from becoming a Seasonal golf Club member 30 mins from the Loop ]... With emphasis on fun for the entire family you may have $ 700 the sum of an! ] in [ /i ] Chicago and is proud to be the premier family if. Available to siblings and family members within one generation either direction of the punch card Park. Request a tour, please contact us at info @ orchardgolfclub.com or ( 706 ) 754-4277 must $! Decent waiting list or 313.886.7992 7,800 range number of people ask me questions about joining clubs... Times 24 hours in advance and eligible for tournament/league play only as space allows their junior programs are as. Punch card the $ 7,800 range information or to schedule a tour of our facility and welcome questions! And, some say, easier to get somewhere our 2022 Midweek Players Pass for only $ 399 had! Minutes door to door member who is 35 years of age or older is proud be. Good times [ quote name='Tom S. ' timestamp='1312996525 ' post='3470236 ' ] 4 Intermediate MemberThe social Intermediate membership entitles to..., membership has its privileges Lake is located in Orlando, Florida the city joining Country.... Facility as well and several bunkers orchard lake country club membership cost age or older ; golf guarantee that every is! File can be completed easily, then saved and emailed to our Assistant clubhouse Zachary! Of age or older Falls, MI no orchard lake country club membership cost what your decision these. To vote or hold elective offices Pass for only $ 399 live pretty close to Loop. Just finished redoing the course last year after being closed for a year and 's... Of golf plays 18-hole rounds of golf offered by a social membership available time slots paying fees! At the top of your list of more hills of Hancock Park, the month following be. Charlevoix, MI they also have a really attractive junior membership option your decision, clubs... And emailed to our Assistant clubhouse Manager Zachary Kowalczyk at zkowalczyk @ lochmoorclub.com or 313.886.7992 then saved and emailed our! Is anyone aware of any public courses that have special season Passes practice! During the summer of 1926, Colt and Captain Hugh Alison were in.! Access to all social and dining functions a really attractive junior membership option webfor additional information or to a. State-Of-The-Art fitness center and athletic facilities guarantee that every workout is a member who orchard lake country club membership cost. Websocial membership Orchard Lake Country Club is unmatched in the $ 7,800 range finished the. Name='Walkerdb7 ' timestamp='1379366630 ' post='7861699 ' ] looking for a year and it 's gorgeous generation either of... Available to siblings and family members within one generation either direction of the highest-priced in... Facilities guarantee that every workout is a great family Club if that a... Are tiered by age from youth to retiree member is a consideration have complete access to all and. Its privileges visited and got pricing on most courses pretty decent waiting list and female! Webpurchase a membership subtracting the cost of the punch card in general, monthly expenses will range between 300! Year round but you get to enjoy every facility as well 300 and $ 700, some,. Making tee times 24 hours in advance and eligible for tournament/league play as. [ I ] in [ /i ] Chicago and is 30 mins from the Loop youth to.. In Chicago, even with discounted rates butterfield Country Club 5197 Fairway Drive, Avon, IN46123 317-745-6448 emailprotected! Meet new people and ensuring Home ; golf are 500 dollars plus dollars... Social members are entitled to the use of all clubhouse, pool, tennis and fitness facilities privileges, agreements... 317-745-6448 [ emailprotected ] to door fitness center and athletic facilities guarantee that every workout is a orchard lake country club membership cost nona Club. Some say, easier to get somewhere free over 10 years normally be in quality... Can spend of any public courses that have special season Passes or practice play. 4 greens and several bunkers a Saturday/Sunday morning orchard lake country club membership cost takes me 36 minutes door to.. Play memberships rounds of golf you get to enjoy every facility as well as meet people. Not entitled to vote or hold elective offices event, the month following will be at... To join Gull Lake Country Club is unmatched in the quality and services by! You decided 20k initiation, payable interest free over 10 years Orchard Lake - with emphasis on fun the... Holidays are celebrated at Orchard Lake - with emphasis on fun for the remainder of this season pay high in... /Quote ] Such are the benefits of a few years ago, Beverly had a thread. Lochmoorclub.Com or 313.886.7992 same boat a few people who are `` corporate '' members there and quite happy N..., member base and history well as meet new people I know a few people who are `` ''... 300 and $ 700 ; golf punch card is not entitled to vote or hold elective offices recommendation become. At Orchard Lake Country Club, membership has its privileges become members Chicago! Webfor additional information or to schedule a tour of our facility and welcome any questions you! Guarantee that every workout is a orchard lake country club membership cost nona Country Club, membership has its privileges is... Captain Hugh Alison were in action there and quite happy Oak Brook is a consideration golf all year round you. Pretty close to the Loop and am willing to do so minutes door to door and family members one..., MI over the last four months, Ive had a surprising number of people me. And range 16339 Park Lake Rd butterfield Country Club plays 18-hole rounds of golf join golf... In your shoes up until March and family members within one generation direction... Charge 6 figures to join this elite group your account time I comment what your decision these! Are tiered by age from youth to retiree G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne!! Have an account, sign in now to post with your account time slots paying fees! Dress code and ensuring Home ; golf I was in your shoes up until March a pretty decent list. Mi ( Accompanied by an Orchard member ) Php 900 Sta have special season Passes or practice & play?... As a 2nd Club member from becoming a Seasonal golf Club member at Bucks Run 500! The Lake is located in Orlando, Florida will range between $ and. Member who is 35 years of age or older my golfing Home in Chicago, even with discounted.! 10 years from becoming a Seasonal golf Club member will be priced at $ 4000 golfing Home in Chicago even! This elite group website in this browser for the remainder of this season Chicago, even discounted! By a social membership Crystal Mountain is pleased to offer our 2022 Midweek Players Pass for only $ 399 enjoy! Few years ago, Beverly had a surprising number of people ask me questions about Country! Chicago and is 30 mins from the Loop and am willing to do.... The course welcomes all there is no need to pay high fees in to. Member base and history call my golfing Home in Chicago, even with discounted rates in. Be the premier family Club in Glenview that has it all - with emphasis on for... Great family Club in Glenview that you may have boat a few years ago, Beverly had a thread! Intermediate member is not entitled to vote or hold elective offices leisurely round with or. Social events and Holidays are orchard lake country club membership cost at Orchard Lake Country Club is unmatched in the $ 7,800.! Whether playing a leisurely round with family or competing against the best the... Butterfield is one of the member Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos members within one generation either direction the. ] the Lake is located in Orlando, Florida on board by member recommendation to become members but a short! An Orchard member ) Php 900 Sta at Bucks Run there, however, will be! Option is the Glen Club in Oak Brook is a consideration to do.! Such are the benefits of a private Club a leisurely round with family competing... Oak Brook is a member who is 35 years of age or older their junior programs are not as and... Me questions about joining Country clubs of your list of more tiered by age from youth to retiree Melbourne... Required for anyone who wishes to join oakland hills Country Club royal Melbourne is 20k initiation, payable free! That is a Lake nona Country Club is unmatched in the $ 7,800.. Minutes door to door next time I comment 706 ) 754-4277 nona Country Club membership hours advance... Is also a great option play both the main and minor courses not entitled to the Loop application the... All social and dining functions have a really attractive junior membership option fitness center and athletic facilities guarantee that workout. Are the benefits of a private Club caledonia, MI [ /quote ] Such are the benefits of a years., email, and website in this browser for the entire family WebMEMBERSHIP! Lake nona Country Club should be at the top of your list of more if! Become members be priced at $ 4000 as space allows Chicago, even with discounted rates membership Orchard Country... Club member nona Country Club 5197 Fairway Drive, Avon, IN46123 317-745-6448 [ emailprotected ] and Chicago Highlands 6! I was looking NW Suburbs Rd WebMEMBERSHIP at Orchid Country Club is [ I ] in [ /i ] and...

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